125: What is EMDR and How EMDR Can Help You on the Healing Journey with Kelly Schooner
In this episode, I welcome special guest Kelly Schooner, a licensed marriage and family therapist, to discuss what is EMDR (Eye Movement Desensitization and Reprocessing) and how EMDR can help people on their healing journeys. We discuss who EMDR can help, how EMDR can help people with “big T trauma” and also “little T traumas”, the difference between suppression and repression, how EMDR can help people with ADD, and more. We also touch on the question - can you trust an EMDR memory. If you have any follow up questions about EMDR, reach out to Amanda at contact@newviewadvice.com and we can do a follow up episode. Thanks for listening!
This post contains affiliate links to some of my favorite tools and resources. As an Amazon Associate, I earn from qualifying purchases. Full terms & conditions here.
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Book Recommendations
The Courage to Heal: A Guide for Women Survivors of Child Sexual Abuse, 20th Anniversary Edition by Ellen Bass & Laura Davis
The Courage to Heal Workbook: A Guide for Women and Men Survivors of Child Sexual Abuse by Laura Davis
Allies in Healing: When the Person You Love Was Sexually Abused as a Child by Laura Davis
Episode References
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Learn More About Kelly Schooner:
Kelly Schooner is a licensed marriage and family therapist. She is trained in EMDR, certified in add and certified for complex trauma. Graduated with her master's in science in 2014 from Cal State Fullerton and was trained in EMDR in 2015 and that started her journey! She works with individuals from teen through adulthood focusing on trauma, ADD, anxiety, depression, PTSD, anger management, grief , and pretty much anything that the client presents with she feels like she can help them with.
How to Contact and Work with Kelly:
Timestamps ⏱️
Introduction: 0:05
Chat with Kelly about EMDR: 1:45
Outro: 53:15
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Amanda Durocher [00:00:01]:
Welcome to New View Advice with Amanda Durocher. Hey, beautiful soul. Welcome to New View Advice. If you're new here, New View Advice is a healing centered advice podcast where I offer guidance for the healing journey. I I don't believe I have all the answers you seek. I believe you have all the answers. You just may need a new view and a little help along the way. Thank you for joining us for today's episode.
Amanda Durocher [00:00:19]:
Today's episode is all about EMDR and what is EMDR. My intention with today's episode was really to demystify what EMDR is and to help people to understand better what EMDR is and how it may be able to help you on your own healing journey. Joining me for today's episode is Kelly Schooner. I am so grateful that Kelly came on the podcast and shared amazing information with us about EMDR. I learned so much in this episode, so I know you will as well. Kelly Schooner is a licensed marriage and family therapist. She is trained in EMDR, certified in ADD, and certified for complex drama. She graduated with her master's in science in 2014 from Cal State Fullerton and was trained in EMDR in 2015, and that started her journey.
Amanda Durocher [00:00:59]:
She works with individuals from teen through adulthood focusing on trauma, ADD, anxiety, depression, PTSD, anger management, grief, and so much more. Kelly is so knowledgeable on EMDR. As I mentioned, I know I learned a lot today about EMDR, and it helped me to actually understand my own experience with EMDR a bit more because I hadn't had the process explained to me this well before. So I'm really, really grateful to Kelly. Before we jump in, I just wanna mention that after the episode, you can check out my website at newviewadvice.com/120five. And there, you will find all the resources mentioned in today's episode as well as more information about Kelly if you're interested in reaching out or possibly working with her in the future. So with that,
Kelly Schooner [00:01:40]:
let's jump on in to talking about EMDR.
Amanda Durocher [00:01:45]:
Hi, Kelly. Welcome to the podcast. Thank you for joining
Kelly Schooner [00:01:49]:
us. Hi. I am so excited
Amanda Durocher [00:01:50]:
to be here. Yeah. I'm really excited for our conversation today too. We're gonna talk about all things EMDR. And I was hoping before we jumped in, could you give us a brief introduction about yourself and your background with EMDR?
Kelly Schooner [00:02:02]:
Sure. So, basically, I graduated with my master's in 2014. And then immediately while I was earning my hours for licensing, I decided to train for EMDR. So that was in 2015, and I've been doing it ever since.
Amanda Durocher [00:02:17]:
Since. Nice. So I was hoping you could tell everybody what is EMDR and how does it work?
Kelly Schooner [00:02:23]:
Okay. So really, really good question. I'm gonna give you the textbook version, and then I'm gonna give you, like, a, like, a really, like, common person version. So, EMDR is a comprehensive approach to therapy that integrates elements of psychodynamic, cognitive behavioral, interpersonal, experiential, and body centered therapies to maximize treatment effects. That's the canned version. So, it's it's really used for the treatment of PTSD and related past experiences that can trigger emotions, beliefs, sensations. It uses what we call bilateral stimulation, which can be used like it's for eye movements, but you can use hand buzzers, you can use audio if it's going from one ear to the other. Lots of ways to use it.
Kelly Schooner [00:03:17]:
And we use the bilateral to attend to and deescalate the reactivity to past memories, present triggers, and anticipated future events. So that's the, that is the textbook explanation. But basically, we're using eye movements to kind of unlock, if you will, and process the memory, the traumatic memory, in a way that your brain understands it and can put it in the right filing cabinet so that it doesn't cause any future problems.
Amanda Durocher [00:03:48]:
I love that idea of the filing cabinet. Like, it's like a file out of place. Yeah. And then through EMDR, we're able to find its correct place within the brain filing.
Kelly Schooner [00:03:58]:
Yeah. Actually, yes. So so when we experience a trauma, it kind of gets frozen in our brain with all of the emotions, all of the body sensations, all of the negative self appraisal kind of attached to it. And so then what will happen is, let's say that was a long time ago, if you're experiencing something now, it's kind of triggering that same response, or if you're feeling the same response, it kind of links it to that trauma. And so you're kind of feeling like you're reexperiencing it again. So EMDR allows your brain to go, we're not gonna let this trigger us anymore. We're gonna put it in the right place. It happened then.
Kelly Schooner [00:04:35]:
It's not happening now. We're safe now, in essence.
Amanda Durocher [00:04:38]:
Yeah. I've done EMDR since about 2017. It's never, like, every time I do therapy, but I found it to be really helpful with, for me specifically, with the emotions of panic, terror, the really strong ones.
Kelly Schooner [00:04:53]:
Yes. Yes. Absolutely. Yes. And there are, EMDR has been since its development or since its infancy, there have been other ways that we're finding to use it, and there's, like, different protocols that we can use. So we can use a protocol for, like, recent trauma. We can use a protocol for, like, groups of people that have experienced the same trauma. We can use a protocol for chronic pain.
Kelly Schooner [00:05:17]:
I mean, it just it goes on and on. So it's a fantastic, highly efficacious, you know, treatment protocol.
Amanda Durocher [00:05:24]:
Yeah. I actually did a group therapy for survivors of sexual violence, and we would do EMDR. Mhmm. At the end of every session, we would do it as a group group. And I was kind of, like, confused. I was like, can we do this in a group? But it actually yeah. Everybody kinda had their own experience, and it did work. Yeah.
Kelly Schooner [00:05:41]:
It works. Yeah. Mhmm. Yeah. As long as the therapist who's running the group isn't focusing directly on one person's experience and and is kind of, like, making it a a, like, a conjoined kind of protocol, it works great.
Amanda Durocher [00:05:54]:
Yeah. Yeah. We usually had, like, a theme per group, and so the EMDR would kinda be working with that theme that we were working on.
Kelly Schooner [00:06:01]:
That's good. Yeah. Yeah. Fantastic.
Amanda Durocher [00:06:03]:
One thing that you and I talked about that I hadn't heard before was a question I had was, can EMDR be done virtually? Because I know so many people like to do therapy virtually now.
Kelly Schooner [00:06:13]:
Yes. As a matter of fact, it can. So during COVID, I think what I shared with you was there was this brilliant, kind of super genius techie guy who was doing EMDR with his therapist and was making such good movement that when COVID hit, he was lost without it, kind of, like, because he was making so much good progress. And so his genius brain invented an app where it allows it's designed to allow the therapist to control different aspects of the EMDR protocol. Like I can change the color of the the dot that people use. I can change the sound that they hear. I can change the speed of the of the eye movements. It's fantastic.
Kelly Schooner [00:06:53]:
I absolutely love it. It's called bilateral stimulation. Io. It's completely available to do online. I love
Amanda Durocher [00:07:01]:
it. Yeah. I love that too. I think that a lot of people have moved to doing therapy virtually. Do you find that as well?
Kelly Schooner [00:07:07]:
Actually, yeah. I do I mean, I still have some colleagues that prefer to do, you know, in person therapy, but I find that telehealth actually breaks a lot of barriers for a lot of people. Like, for example, if I'm here and I'm I'm doing EMDR and I'm in SoCal, I can help people in anywhere in California. Mhmm. And they can access, you know, me anywhere. And it breaks barriers in terms of, like, you know, hey, I don't want anybody to know I'm doing therapy. Well, I can, you know, reach my person on the phone. I can, like, duck out and go on my my break, you know, from work or whatever.
Kelly Schooner [00:07:42]:
So, yeah, I think it's I I find it to be extremely helpful. Plus, I can wear sweatsuits to, you know, to work if I want to.
Amanda Durocher [00:07:52]:
Yeah. And I'm like, and I wear pajamas when I show up at 9AM on Mondays.
Kelly Schooner [00:07:55]:
Heck, yeah. Like, only people only see the top half of me. So, hey, let's get comfy.
Amanda Durocher [00:08:00]:
Exactly. Throw on a sweater, and it looks looks party on top. Yeah.
Kelly Schooner [00:08:05]:
That's right. It's great.
Amanda Durocher [00:08:08]:
So for people who are a little skeptical of EMDR, I was wondering if we could talk about suppressing feelings and emotions. I feel like it's still this topic that people think I think it's, like, people don't quite understand that people can suppress and repress memories and feelings. And I think that everybody suppresses things, you know, especially difficult feelings. And so I thought we could talk a bit about that.
Kelly Schooner [00:08:34]:
Mhmm. Sure. Sure. Yeah. So while not everyone suppresses emotions to the same degree, yes, it is considered that all humans engage in some form of emotional suppression at times. Okay. So it's common. It's like a common coping mechanism.
Kelly Schooner [00:08:51]:
It's a common defense mechanism where people consciously push away unpleasant feelings to avoid dealing with them directly, even if they may not be fully aware that they are doing so. Mhmm. Okay? So some key points to remember is that it is a natural tendency. Okay? Humans naturally have the tendency to avoid negative emotions, which can lead to some level of suppression to varying degrees. So again, while everyone might suppress emotions occasionally, some individuals may rely on suppression more heavily than others, especially if they've experienced trauma or have learned to prioritize emotional control. Like, it's not okay to express my feelings. It's not okay to cry. It's not okay to be angry.
Kelly Schooner [00:09:39]:
I just have to be, like, compliant. There's a lot of suppression happening with that. And often other people may not even realize that they're suppressing emotions because it can become so automatic Yeah. That they're not aware. But there is a key difference between repression and suppression, and I don't know if people actually understand the difference, so I thought that maybe I would talk a little bit about that.
Amanda Durocher [00:10:01]:
Yes. Please, please. I was actually gonna ask you that. Yeah.
Kelly Schooner [00:10:04]:
Yeah. So repression is the unconscious blocking of unwanted thoughts or memories. It's something that your brain will automatically do. This is like that along the lines of the filing cabinet, right? So, it's something that your brain will automatically do to protect unwanted thoughts or memories from coming up. Okay. That's repression. While suppression is a conscious effort effort to deliberately avoid thinking about or feeling something. Essentially, repression happens without your awareness, while suppression is a deliberate act to push something down.
Kelly Schooner [00:10:46]:
So essentially, both repression and suppression are defense mechanisms that the brain uses to keep us safe. And with both of them, they can cause emotional instability. And when someone has, you know, anxiety, when someone has depression, when someone has, you know, it doesn't really matter if they're getting flashbacks, if they're having nightmares, if they're having like, you know, whatever it is, they have a lot of negative self talk, whatever it is, it's probably connected to something that they're trying to not think about, not want people to know, not want to talk about, or if they think that it is inappropriate in some way to have those thoughts, they will they will try to get rid of the thought Mhmm. Or the emotions. Yeah.
Amanda Durocher [00:11:36]:
That actually makes a lot of sense. I was thinking about while you were sharing. So I repressed my childhood sexual abuse. And it was interesting when it came back up for me, it was like this big thing I couldn't put back away.
Kelly Schooner [00:11:49]:
Yeah. Yeah.
Amanda Durocher [00:11:50]:
So I talked about it all the time, and there were people who suppressed it. That's what I'm seeing now because I would trigger them by talking about it. It's like, oh my god. I had this thing happen to me. And they'd be like, me too. But they'd get angry with me. But, like, I was like, oh. You know? But it's I'm seeing the difference now was that since I fully repressed it when it came up, I couldn't figure out how to put it back away where these people, they had suppressed it is what I'm seeing.
Amanda Durocher [00:12:12]:
So it's like they were consciously didn't wanna look at
Kelly Schooner [00:12:15]:
it. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. And so there's actually a technique that, that we use in EMDR that I use for, like, every EMDR client, and it's called the container. Do you have a container?
Amanda Durocher [00:12:27]:
Is that, like, a safe space?
Kelly Schooner [00:12:28]:
Not really. It's a space to put all of the icky stuff, and, like, you can close it up and you can, like, put it somewhere.
Amanda Durocher [00:12:36]:
Yeah. I'm laughing because my first therapist, I did EMDR, tried to do that with me, and I could not keep it on a shelf.
Kelly Schooner [00:12:43]:
Okay. Yeah. Yes. I mean, there's ways around that, but, essentially, when we when we install a container or when we help the person develop a container, it gives them the ability to put that stuff somewhere. But the difference between that and suppression is they have to actually acknowledge its existence and then like choose to take it and like put it in the container and shut the lid or shut the door or lock it up or whatever until they're ready to take it out. And so it becomes a very important kind of tool that we use for people to actually begin to be able to face some of the stuff that we're gonna be, like, working on, you know? So and then at the end of EMDR sessions, if they're still, like, triggered or if they're still having, like, emotional, stuff from what we've done, we take it and we put it in the container so that they can continue to function. Because essentially, that's what suppression is, but having a container is different than suppression because you're actually acknowledging its existence.
Amanda Durocher [00:13:46]:
Yeah. It's like a conscious intentional effort. Yeah.
Kelly Schooner [00:13:49]:
It is. Yeah. It is. And so I was thinking that, like, if you had your friends, you know, too bad they they didn't have a container or, you know, something where they could like put those feelings so that you could still have someone to support you in those times when you were trying to go, hey, hear me, somebody listen to what I'm telling you, right? Like, but it does take a special individual to be able to hear that.
Amanda Durocher [00:14:12]:
Yes.
Kelly Schooner [00:14:12]:
And that's why we're trained to do that. Like, it's not everybody just can't hold all of that icky, like, emotional stuff. So
Amanda Durocher [00:14:21]:
A %. Yeah. At the beginning of my journey, it took me a while to learn that. If you learn discernment that you're not not everybody can handle everybody's everything, which makes sense.
Kelly Schooner [00:14:31]:
Yeah. Totally. Totally. Yeah.
Amanda Durocher [00:14:33]:
So I was hoping we could talk about who can EMDR help. Like, what kind of problems and behaviors can EMDR help with? Because I talk about it on the podcast a lot, how it helps with trauma, but you and I talked about all the different ways. So I was hoping we could touch on some of those.
Kelly Schooner [00:14:48]:
Oh my gosh. Yeah. I have I'm I'm gonna go on and on and on here on a tirade for just a moment. Please do. Because, just to start out, I wanted I wanted to actually talk about trauma because when people think of trauma, they think of what we label as big T's, like your experience or like witnessing death, murder, war, right? Natural disaster, you know, all of these big car Natural disaster, you know, all of these big car accidents, like the big things that we think of as trauma. However, there is also another subset of trauma that we call little t's. And little Ts are something that most of us develop depending on life experiences. So small trauma happens sometimes by seemingly inconsequential events that build up over time and eventually lead the sufferer to develop symptoms of traumatic stress.
Kelly Schooner [00:15:57]:
Small t traumas result from several forms of harm that occur when we're not adequately, like, attended to as children, responded to, seen, cared for, protected. In other words, small t traumas can stem from a subject's sense of pain and hurt. And I have a whole list. I'll give you, like, a brief example of what a short, like, a small t trauma could be. It could be a shortage of affection. It could be a shortage of eye contact, a lack of emotional understanding, emotional abuse. Right? Being yelled at, being name called, manipulated, taken advantage of, being bullied by parents, by siblings, by peers, being ignored, right? Having overbearing parents, getting too much attention, getting not enough attention, feeling different or alone for any reason. So, like, I mean, the list goes on and on and on.
Kelly Schooner [00:16:56]:
Like, that is why I firmly believe that when someone comes to therapy and they're like, I don't think I have any trauma. I'm like, no, dude, we all do. Yeah. Right? That is that is my belief. We all do because the the issue is depending on your environment, depending on your level of sensitivity, because we, some people are way more sensitive than others, depending on how you were nurtured as a child or a baby, all of those things can lend themselves to what we call developing core ideas about ourselves, and we carry those from childhood into adulthood, and then they cause problems. Because most of us, our brains have the tendency to negate the positive and focus on the negative. Okay, so if you were to ask probably anybody that you know, tell me your story, right? Like, give me your story. More often than not, they will dictate their story with elements of negativity from childhood that they remember.
Kelly Schooner [00:18:04]:
And that's not wrong. Like, it's a human thing. It's something that our brain does. It's very difficult for us to remember the positive parts. And so, when I'm talking about small t traumas, those are the negative things that happened to you, that your brain took as scary. Yeah. Right? Like, and it caused, you know, emotions in your body that you didn't understand at the time. And infants can experience this.
Kelly Schooner [00:18:30]:
Like, they've shown in attachment theory that if the mother is not engaging the child or if the mother engages too much, it's all just part of the same thing. So small t traumas can leave a mark because they evoke powerful emotions that are hard to manage, especially when we're young and vulnerable. So everybody has small t traumas. Big t traumas, again, are those big traumas where you are witnessing or being a victim of a crime. Right? And that is where we get this overarching label of PTSD because it's like those recurring things you have, like, you know, you can't walk by the place where the thing happened. You have, like, horrible, you know, nightmares. You get triggered with noises or smells or things like that. And that's why small t traumas are, you know, kind of harder to piece out because it's a it is an experience of humanity.
Kelly Schooner [00:19:28]:
Right? Like divorce, right? That's that's a small t trauma. Moving. Moving when you're a child from your social stability T trauma. And then not to mention all of the horrible ways that children can treat each other. Yeah. You know? So all, we all have small T traumas. So when you ask me who can EMDR help? Everybody.
Amanda Durocher [00:19:50]:
Yeah.
Kelly Schooner [00:19:51]:
There is not anybody that it, that it can't help because just to be able to change those negative self talk or the problematic symptoms that can recur over time, or even reactions or repeated behaviors that the person doesn't understand can be connected to some of these small t things. So anyone that's suffered big Ts and anyone that's suffered little t's. So basically everybody.
Amanda Durocher [00:20:18]:
I love that answer because I I agree. I think it can help anybody because I also used EMDR for a lot of my big t's. But when you were talking about the small t's, one thing I repeatedly used EMDR for was bullying, as you mentioned, and the feeling of humiliation that went with that.
Kelly Schooner [00:20:35]:
Yeah. Oh, yeah.
Amanda Durocher [00:20:35]:
And there were moments that I really was being bullied. And then there were moments where I thought I was being bullied, but that still stuck, and I still needed to process that experience.
Kelly Schooner [00:20:45]:
Well, you bring up a really, really, really great point. And I think that this is hard for people to understand if they don't if they haven't done therapy or if their therapist doesn't really explain the mechanisms that our brain uses to keep us moving along. There's several books that talk about this and they talk about it in many different ways. But what you're talking about is this idea of perception, right? So you said, yes, you were bullied, but also because of that experience, it led you to believe certain things about yourself. And then let's say that that was whatever the idea was, maybe I don't fit in or I'm the outsider, or I'm weird. So whatever that is that our brain is thinking, from the time that you experience the initial little t, your brain then begins to gather evidence that that thing is true. Okay? So in essence, it's building its case file to prove that you are weird. Okay? So now every time you get a little tickle at the back of your brain that you're weird, it's gonna take that as evidence.
Kelly Schooner [00:21:55]:
And let's pretend that we're gonna call that a color. Let's pretend that that color is, blue. All right? We're gonna call that like a sky blue. Beautiful picture behind you, blue. So now, when you go into an experience where you're feeling a bit anxious about what's going to happen, if you think that there's gonna be any of that weirdness, you put those blue lenses on and then guess what? You make it weird. Yeah. Right? Yes. And then it's weird.
Kelly Schooner [00:22:23]:
Right? And then your brain goes, told you. You're weird. Right? Because you've put those blue glasses on and you've colored the experience. Mhmm. Does that make sense?
Amanda Durocher [00:22:33]:
That makes total sense. Yeah.
Kelly Schooner [00:22:35]:
It's even that kind of thing that we can work on with EMDR because we all do it. And then it challenges your reality. And then we can get into some like really like deep kind of philosophical stuff. And then you're you're like, well, is what I'm thinking even true, right? Or even valid? How do we operate in the world if we don't know what we're thinking is accurate, right?
Amanda Durocher [00:22:56]:
Yeah.
Kelly Schooner [00:22:57]:
So it can be problematic, especially if we are the ones judging ourselves because our brains will always judge us the worst than we judge anybody else.
Amanda Durocher [00:23:10]:
A %. I'm glad that's true for everybody else because I know that's true for me.
Kelly Schooner [00:23:14]:
It is. Well, it is. It is. And people think that it's not. Like, this is a human condition. Right? Like, we are our worst critics. Yeah. So one of my my goals, like, in therapy is to get you to become your cheerleader.
Kelly Schooner [00:23:30]:
Like, you cheerlead for everybody else. Why can't you cheerlead for yourself?
Amanda Durocher [00:23:34]:
Yeah. I like how you talked about too how EMDR helps us with our humanity. Because it really is what it is is that humanity is so complicated, so messy, and I think so much of society tries to cut out the emotional element of it. But I believe truly we're emotional beings. I mean, it's part of who we are. And if we don't learn so much of we don't learn so much of this from a young age. We we young age.
Kelly Schooner [00:23:56]:
We we we don't. It's an unfortunate circumstance that in parenting, we are using the same skills that our parents used and their parents used with small changes. Right? Like, We always try to do better than our parents, right? But what's interesting is that there are elements, like we only have the tools that we have, that we were given. And so then we repeat behaviors that our parents raised us with. So unless you are super enlightened and super self aware and you started therapy before you had children and you found out some of these patterns, we're all making the same, like we're making mistakes and that's just a given. So if you, anybody out there that hasn't had kids and you want to do something different and you think you're going to be the perfect parent, sorry, that's not going to happen. It's not gonna happen, and it'll come back to bite you in the butt in ways that you never thought would be possible because you thought you did everything you could to not be your parents.
Amanda Durocher [00:24:59]:
Yeah.
Kelly Schooner [00:24:59]:
But it it it happens anyway. So, yes, I agree.
Kelly Schooner [00:25:16]:
And as an adult, you have to get to the point where you can't, you have to stop blaming your parents for the way that you're behaving. I mean, I know that's difficult because a lot of the things that we learn as children are very ingrained, but also we have, you know, neuroplasticity, right? We can change. It's difficult. It's hard. It's like starting a new diet or exercise routine, but it can be done, but you have to become self aware first. If you're not, then then it's going to repeat itself with your own children in unconscious ways.
Amanda Durocher [00:25:54]:
Yeah. It's an uncomfortable process, but it's it's doable for sure.
Kelly Schooner [00:25:59]:
Oh, for sure. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. So your question was, who can EMDR help? And I went blah blah blah blah blah and all this. But, yes, anybody.
Amanda Durocher [00:26:07]:
Yeah. I think that's great for people to hear too because people definitely write in and they will give me a specific example, and they'll be like, will EMDR help me? And I'm gonna start sending them this episode because I'm always like, I'm not a therapist. I can't technically answer this, but I'm just like, yes, question mark. You know? Because I do think it can just help anybody. So when people write me specific examples, I'm just like I usually say contact a therapist, and they could help you. But Oh, for sure.
Kelly Schooner [00:26:30]:
For sure. And and there I mean, we do run into, like, some difficulties where we have to work, like, extra hard to get the person ready to do EMDR because it's like nothing you've ever experienced in your life, and we're gonna be asking you to look at things you really don't wanna look at. So it can be a bit overwhelming for a lot of people, and that's why you said you don't do it every session with your therapist. I would I I understand why. You know, the people that I do EMDR with, I'll ask them before the session. EMDR or supportive. Because if they're going through something really stressful or super emotional and they need my support. That's what I'm gonna get I'm that's what I'm gonna give them.
Kelly Schooner [00:27:12]:
I don't wanna put anybody under extra duress because I have a goal to help them with EMDR. That's not that's not my modus operandi. I go where you go. Right? If you if you're okay to do EMDR that day, let's do it because you're going to get more movement that way. But also, supportive psychotherapy can be so meaningful and so insightful at the same time. Slower movement because you have to get there yourself sometimes, which is harder.
Amanda Durocher [00:27:43]:
Yeah. I think it's how my brain works, because I like to do an EMDR session, and then it's usually like a couple weeks of me, like, continuing to unpack it because I, like, mentally want to understand it a little. And it's slower.
Kelly Schooner [00:27:55]:
Yeah. I'm glad you said that because the thing about EMDR is that let's say, for example, we're working on a specific memory. If we open Pandora's box in an EMDR session and we don't finish, and what I mean by finish is with EMDR, what happens is it'll start at a high level of distress. And it varies from, like, zero to 10. You're familiar with this scale that we use. It's a subjective unit of distress. Okay? So what happens is we'll scale that in the beginning of the session, and let's say, for example, it's a six. By the time an EMDR session is done, that target is no longer disturbing.
Kelly Schooner [00:28:38]:
It's a zero. It's neutral. It's it doesn't, when you think about it, it doesn't create any type of distress in your body. And also, along with that, you're moving from a negative concept, and when we think of negative concepts, they can be even as simple as I can't handle this. Like, that's not saying anything negative necessarily about you, but it's saying you don't trust yourself to handle this kind of situation. So even I can't handle this is negative when you have issues like anxiety or, you know, depression or something like that. Right? So then by the time the session is over, it's adaptive. So it's so we work with the client to get the adaptive response.
Kelly Schooner [00:29:23]:
Like, I can I can get through this? Right? Or I can learn how to set boundaries. Or I can learn to handle difficult situations, or whatever the person wants to believe at the end. And we try to match them kind of like so that it's meaningful. But if we can't finish, which is what you were saying, we do our best to calm the body down, put the extra stuff away, but then your brain is like, ah, hell nah. I wanna, I wanna finish this job, right? I wanna heal myself. So it's gonna keep working when we're not together. And so then you come back to session and you're like, well, had some dreams, had this insight, thought about this, this came up and we're like, yeah, that, yeah, that's, that's fantastic. That's what happens.
Kelly Schooner [00:30:13]:
Then we come back, right, to the next EMDR session and we go, okay, well, does this thing still bother you? And we take another unit of disturbance. And if it's still there, we continue to process it. But what tends to happen, sometimes, not always, sometimes, it will, it will do what we call generalize, which means that your brain did enough work on it that it's no longer disturbing in any way. And you've already adopted the adaptive thought about the thing, which brings me to a very good point. So I wanna express very clearly that EMDR can be a magic bullet. It will give you a lot of movement in a short time. But those neural connections that we all have around some of our negative automatic thoughts or negative automatic responses are what we call myelated. So, that neural connection is strengthened by myelation.
Kelly Schooner [00:31:17]:
Okay? So, if you can think of an electrical wire, when you see the little copper wire hanging out of the black cover, the black cover is myelination in our brain. The wire is the neural connection. Those are not going to disappear. We cannot take those away. But what EMDR does is creates a new neural connection around the adaptive thought, but they are not myelated. Are you catching the drift there? They're not strong, but your brain will eventually go to the more adaptive thought, but it is also up to you to choose to use it as well. We have to strengthen it. We have to go, no brain, I, like, I'm done with that I'm the worst person on the planet thought that you always make me think.
Kelly Schooner [00:32:11]:
Like, I'm not the worst person on the planet. This thing happened to me and it wasn't my fault, I was four. So, then, you have to practice it too. I am okay. I'm loved. I'm strong. I'm capable. Whatever it is.
Kelly Schooner [00:32:27]:
And, you have to help the violation. You have to help strengthen it. Yeah. So, it's not a one done. And I I just wanted to make that clear because I think people are desperate. They want help and they want change as fast as possible. And while it's true, EMDR can create a lot of change really fast, you're still responsible for exercising it and using it.
Amanda Durocher [00:32:54]:
Yeah. A lot of people are desperate for help, and I know that from personal experience. So when I found EMDR, I was at one of the worst places of my life.
Kelly Schooner [00:33:02]:
Sure.
Amanda Durocher [00:33:03]:
I was Yeah. Really, really struggling because I didn't know how to grapple with the memories that were coming back of being sexually assaulted as a child, and, I was desperate for change. And what I found is it helped me so much. It helped me to live in the world, but I still had to be the one to come to terms with my new view of the world because my world was flipped upside down. So I still had to, like you were saying, begin to see my world differently and accept the new world. It that's how it felt to me. It felt like I was all of a sudden in a new world because I went from being one way to another way is how it felt.
Kelly Schooner [00:33:38]:
Yeah. A whole new world. Yes. Oh, okay. I'm just kidding.
Amanda Durocher [00:33:44]:
I'm like, but yes.
Kelly Schooner [00:33:46]:
But yes. But yes. And and like, I mean, like I'm saying, those your brain is still there's those thoughts are still in there. And so it's, you know, some people will go, well, EMDR didn't help me. Well, I find that really hard to believe. That's hard for me to swallow because it it will help you, but also you have to have a good EMDR therapist that knows what they're doing, that follows the protocol, that is also willing to support you in other ways and kind of like help you with that insight, like building that insight and that self Because we get people in the office that are just completely disconnected. Mhmm. Like, their brains and bodies are not connected.
Kelly Schooner [00:34:27]:
They don't know what they're feeling when they're feeling it. They don't know why this is happening. And they're very in their heads. They're not in their And so it takes a lot of work to kind of connect those separate entities, if you will.
Amanda Durocher [00:34:42]:
Yeah. Well, you were sharing too. I also thought about I think one reason I really struggled with EMDR at the beginning, which I was wondering if you could speak to, is that I judged everything that came up so fully. So I know before this episode, we talked about, can you trust an EMDR memory? A lot of people wonder that question.
Kelly Schooner [00:35:00]:
Okay. That's a great that's a great question. Well, because of all of the court cases that have been publicized with in the seventies where psychiatrists were planting, quote, unquote, fake memories in children's brains and all of this other stuff. It's a difficult question to answer. However, if you are speaking specifically about sexual trauma, I can say with clarity that most of those memories are probably accurate. And if you're getting bits and pieces or flashes of images or memories that come up for you, they're they're probably real. If it has to do with sexual trauma, it's probably accurate.
Amanda Durocher [00:35:43]:
Thank you for saying that. As you mentioned with the news articles, it's something that when my memories came back in about 2017 and I Googled it, I couldn't find information that validated me. Mhmm. I found a lot of information that invalidated me, which sent me into so many more tailspins. It's a reason I'm vocal about the fact that I repressed my childhood trauma. I don't like talking about it. It's that I wish I had heard more people talk about it, so I just try to not normalize it might be the wrong word, but I just try to bring light to it. That it is real.
Kelly Schooner [00:36:15]:
Well, normalize it isn't the wrong word because so many of us experience it. Yeah. Which is just fucking tragic that it's that way.
Amanda Durocher [00:36:24]:
Yeah.
Kelly Schooner [00:36:25]:
You know? But our brains don't understand it. And it's usually locked in our brain with some sort of, this is my fault. I am dirty. I am responsible. I wanted it. I liked it. And none of that, that none of that is accurate.
Amanda Durocher [00:36:45]:
Yeah. A %. Yeah. I had all those beliefs tied in. Yeah.
Kelly Schooner [00:36:49]:
So speaking of, speaking of this specific issue, there is a really good book that I can recommend. So if people aren't ready to do the hardcore therapy and they wanna kind of help themselves or do some like self healing on their own, there's a book called The Courage to Heal. I don't know if you've heard of this one.
Amanda Durocher [00:37:09]:
Yes. Yes. I actually have that book. Yeah.
Kelly Schooner [00:37:11]:
There's a book and then there's a workbook and I really like it. It is geared towards women, the, the gender of women. I wish that she would rewrite it so that it, it could be for all people because men experience it as well. Mhmm. But I do believe it is a very great kind of resource for people to use to kind of move into some of that self healing.
Amanda Durocher [00:37:32]:
Yeah. And to piggyback on that, my when my memories came back, my partner actually read Allies in Healing, which is a book she wrote for partners of people who have experienced abuse. And he found that helpful too because being a partner of somebody can be isolating as well.
Kelly Schooner [00:37:49]:
Oh my gosh. Yes. Because they don't they think they may be doing something wrong, like to hurt their partner in some way. And also that huge feeling of helplessness that comes when your partner's suffering and they don't know how to help you. That's a good resource too. Thank you for that.
Amanda Durocher [00:38:03]:
Yeah. That was all really helpful. Thank you. And thank you again for vocalizing that because I think there's a lot of fear put around I don't know who they are because I'm like, they make you think, but there's, like, this belief out there that we can make each other believe horrible things happen to each other. Like and it's not that we can't influence one another. We definitely can, and that's what's complicated. But now that I'm on the other side of so much healing, nobody told me these things happened to me. Nobody nobody actually believed me the whole way.
Amanda Durocher [00:38:32]:
It had to be a full entire process of learning to trust myself and what my body was communicating.
Kelly Schooner [00:38:38]:
Yeah. See. And that is you are so brave because a lot of people cannot do what you're doing, but I wanna invite everybody out there that has suffered something like this to please, please dip their toes in the therapy pool because it can really help kind of validate you and what you're going through. Even if it's just to have somebody to listen to
Amanda Durocher [00:39:03]:
Yeah.
Kelly Schooner [00:39:04]:
Nobody listening to you. You know?
Amanda Durocher [00:39:06]:
Yeah. Therapy has been so helpful for me. So I'm a huge proponent of it. I speak very highly of it. I don't think every therapist is for everybody, but I have a bunch of episodes I'll link in the show notes where I talk about that.
Kelly Schooner [00:39:18]:
Oh, yeah. No. You gotta try them on sometimes, like a pair of shoes. You know? If it doesn't fit, try on a different pair of shoes till you find the right one.
Amanda Durocher [00:39:26]:
Yeah. It's like we're all different, so everybody's gonna find a different match. You know? It doesn't have to be personal either. It's just like some people are gonna vibe with somebody's style and other people are gonna vibe with a different style. And some people have experience with something, but not with other things. I think when it comes to people, we always make it so personal. Like, we don't wanna hurt each other. You know, in the past, I know I did wanna hurt a therapist's feelings, but the truth is it's really not personal.
Amanda Durocher [00:39:48]:
Yeah.
Kelly Schooner [00:39:49]:
So It's not it's not personal. And if I that's that's a good point because if I ever do anything to end like, or say anything to my clients that kind of makes them feel like a certain way, there may be what we call like a therapist bias where they're feeling like they can't say anything about what it is, but I prefer them to tell me so that I can repair that relationship and learn myself. I'm learning all the time from my clients. And I appreciate that because it helps me stay tight and focused and, like, always learning.
Amanda Durocher [00:40:22]:
Yeah. And it's like we talked about how EMDR, but also therapy, it's really connecting with each other's humanity. And as we talked about, humanity is complicated. It's messy. So we are. We're always learning, which is why I find it so interesting.
Kelly Schooner [00:40:34]:
Oh my god. It's so messy.
Amanda Durocher [00:40:37]:
Yes. Because everybody has a different background that leads them to who they are today. We all have so many similarities, but we're also so different. Like, that's what I keep coming back to time and time again.
Kelly Schooner [00:40:47]:
I know. Yeah. And everybody's experience is unique. It's so interesting.
Amanda Durocher [00:40:52]:
Yeah. Because as a survivor of sexual violence, I work at a nonprofit here, but I meet a bunch of survivors, and we're just all so different. But at one point in my life, I would have thought we were all the same. Like, we all would act the same or something. And we don't. We're all so different, and we all have different experiences and different coping strategies. And
Kelly Schooner [00:41:10]:
Well, yeah. But the common thread gives them a sense of belonging.
Amanda Durocher [00:41:15]:
Yes. There's that
Kelly Schooner [00:41:15]:
And so it's like, you're reaching out your hand and you're going, I feel you. Yeah. Right? Like, take my hand. I'm I know some of what you're going through.
Amanda Durocher [00:41:27]:
Yeah.
Kelly Schooner [00:41:27]:
So I think that's meaningful.
Amanda Durocher [00:41:29]:
It is. And I I think it's kinda like a infinity loop almost where, like, you meet at the middle, and then you go out and you have your own experience, and then you come back and you meet. And you kinda keep having these two experiences at the same time where you're your individual self, but you also can relate to other people's humanity.
Kelly Schooner [00:41:45]:
That's a good metaphor. We should make a t shirt together.
Amanda Durocher [00:41:49]:
Yes. I'm in. I was like, it just came to me right now. So, like, we'll trademark it.
Kelly Schooner [00:41:56]:
Okay. Good. What else is on your agenda? Because I know there's something else.
Amanda Durocher [00:42:01]:
One thing we had talked about that I found really interesting was that you had mentioned that EMDR can help people with ADD, and I hadn't heard that before.
Kelly Schooner [00:42:08]:
So I
Amanda Durocher [00:42:08]:
was just hoping you could maybe
Kelly Schooner [00:42:10]:
People with ADD, because of the nature of ADD, can often have the experience with a lot of little t's. Often not succeeding in school, being bullied by parents, siblings, peers, or others, a lack of emotional affection, emotional understanding, losing a job, lack of social skills. I mean, it goes on and on. So the problem is that there's a strong correlation between children with learning disabilities, including ADD, and child abuse. So the connection also appears to be bidirectional. And what I mean by that is that children who are abused have a greater risk of developing learning disabilities because of the impact of chronic stress and trauma on their developing brain. And so additionally, children who have a learning disability are at a greater risk of being abused when parents misunderstand or are triggered by their child's cognitive differences. This is often why ADD can be very, very difficult to differentiate from complex trauma because there's a lot of overlap.
Kelly Schooner [00:43:28]:
Some research researchers believe that symptoms of childhood stress could be mistaken for ADD and that the risk of diagnosis is high. Misdiagnosis is high because there's an overlap between ADD symptoms and the experience of trauma. So unless the symptoms are examined really closely by a highly trained professional, childhood traumatic stress can appear very similar to ADD. For example, I'll just give you one example. Young children who experience trauma may have symptoms of hyperactivity and disruptive behavior that resembles ADD. And trauma can make children feel agitated and can have a troubled nervous and and are on high alert. And these these behaviors can be mistaken for hyperactivity. So when you ask me if EMDR can help people with ADD, my immediate go to response is there are so many overlapping symptoms that it almost I'm almost guaranteed that those people that have ADD have also experienced traumatic events.
Kelly Schooner [00:44:38]:
Because there are also some scientific publications that say that when you have ADD, you are at greater risk of experiencing trauma and abuse of some sort. Right? I just kind of went over that. But it's even beyond that. Because then once you've been a victim, if I wanna say victim, you are more likely, if we were gonna look at, like, the scientific percentage or, like, the the chances, right, the probability, you are more likely to be then revictimized. And so I'll get a lot of people that have been diagnosed with ADD. Now that's not my job to diagnose them, but that is telling me just because they have that diagnosis that I am probably looking at some sort of complex trauma because there's a lot of indistinguishable overlapping symptoms together that look like ADD. And and if they've been diagnosed by a professional for ADD, I'm going with that. Right? But it also tells me there's trauma happening.
Kelly Schooner [00:45:40]:
Mere existence of having ADD, even if it was a genetic thing, you develop a sense of not being able to trust your brain, not feeling as smart as everybody else. The inability to pick up on social cues leaves you outside, like as an outsider looking in most of your life. You feel weird. You can't do things the same way as everybody else. Those are all little Ts, you know? So I expect to have a certain amount of trauma. Plus, anxiety and depression are almost always comorbid with ADD, and sometimes mood disorders because of the emotional dysregulation that the that the executive functioning deficiency has. So, I mean, it's just a you wanna talk about a Pandora's box, like, that is a Pandora's box. And I I I feel so much for these people because it's not their fault.
Kelly Schooner [00:46:32]:
And if in The United States, we chose to look at ADD as a plus, because there are things that people with ADD can do that normal neurotypical people cannot do. I'm on that spectrum somewhere. Right? We think outside the box. Excellent, creative problem solvers. High, high levels of ingenuity and creativity. If we just focused on that so much, it would just be so different. Like, if it was just like a, you get a medal for having ADD, imagine what the world would be like. Yeah.
Kelly Schooner [00:47:12]:
Right? Oh, snap. I don't have ADD. He has it. Damn it. Right? It would be different. So I do really feel for those people that present to me as having ADD.
Amanda Durocher [00:47:27]:
Yeah. A %. My compassion inside was so triggered by that because I do think there's such judgments, especially at young ages, and people can be diagnosed at such young ages that it just creates these these stories we tell ourselves
Kelly Schooner [00:47:42]:
Yeah. Oh, yeah.
Amanda Durocher [00:47:42]:
And that society tells us. And it just child abuse is, like, I think, the epidemic. I think if we were to help children a bit more, the world would be a better place.
Kelly Schooner [00:47:53]:
Absolutely. Absolutely. I I agree 100%.
Amanda Durocher [00:47:58]:
Yeah. And that was really helpful too because I, multiple times, have wondered if I have ADD because I my yeah. And I honestly might. I've never gone in. I've never had anybody diagnosed. But time and time again, I'm like, oh, like, this is a trauma response for me. Like, this is a this is connected to my trauma. So hearing the overlap was really interesting for me to hear because it just confirms something for me.
Kelly Schooner [00:48:20]:
Oh my god. There's so much overlap. So what you can do is you can go on whatever search engine you like and you can type in Venn diagram overlap between trauma and ADD, and it'll come up with a perfect picture so that you can see
Amanda Durocher [00:48:39]:
Okay. Yeah.
Kelly Schooner [00:48:40]:
How they interact.
Amanda Durocher [00:48:41]:
I'll find one of those, and I'll include it in the show notes for this episode so that we can all look at that together.
Kelly Schooner [00:48:47]:
That'd be cool.
Amanda Durocher [00:48:48]:
Yeah. The last thing I wanted to ask you before we wrapped up is just what would be your advice for first time EMDR participants? What would be your advice for somebody who's feeling really nervous or scared or unsure if it's for them?
Kelly Schooner [00:49:01]:
My advice for EMDR first timers is to get someone who's clinically trained in EMDR, obviously, but also make sure that the relationship is built on trust and transparency because the EMDR therapist has to be able to hold anything and everything thing that the client brings and has to have the skill to be able to continue to process for the client's benefit in the face of challenging defense mechanisms, emotions, or fight or flight reactions. So, my advice is to find someone that you get along with very well in the therapy room that is trained in EMDR, build that relationship, and when you feel like you're ready and the therapist feels like you're ready to move into EMDR. There are some schools of thought, especially in the EMDR world, that say not to wait, but I believe we have to make sure that any client that we're working with with EMDR can handle what happens between sessions as well. And so when we're doing EMDR, like I said earlier, it's kind of like opening Pandora's box. And in between sessions, if you don't finish, like I said, your brain's gonna wanna keep working on it. So what does that look like? Right? This can be part of the fear. It can look like spiraling. It can look like thoughts flooding your brain.
Kelly Schooner [00:50:24]:
It can be dreams. It can be extreme emotional reactions. And the person needs to be able to recognize that their brain is still working on some of the trauma that they've been processing. So that was a long answer for that question, but relationship is really the main source of stability. Like the person has to trust the other person because we're kind of for lack of a better explanation, we're taking a tool, and we're kinda, like, going in there, and we're kinda, like, moving stuff around and uncovering things. And we have to have a way to make sure the person can handle that.
Amanda Durocher [00:51:00]:
Yeah. I think that makes a lot of sense. And I also think for the person doing the EMDR, the trust really helps you to relax. Yeah. I remember one time I tried doing EMDR with a therapist for, like, the first time. We only met for this one session, and I couldn't relax during it. So I was more judgmental than usual. And there just wasn't that trust built, so it wasn't, like, a safe space for me to, like, dive deep.
Amanda Durocher [00:51:21]:
So it didn't end up being as helpful as it could be. I would just kinda remained in, like, a really judgmental place. So I think that trust you talked about is helpful on both ends. Right? It's a relationship.
Kelly Schooner [00:51:32]:
Oh god. It's so imperative. Yeah. Because not only that, but, like, I need to know what's going on in their brain right now when I'm doing it. So, like, if there if there is part of them that's building a wall and is like, I'm done. Like, you're not getting in there. You don't have a key. You're not welcome here.
Kelly Schooner [00:51:50]:
Nobody's breaking down this wall right now. Then I have to actually know that because I have tools where we can actually look at the can, but not inside the can, You know? And it's still good work.
Amanda Durocher [00:52:02]:
Yeah. Yeah. Definitely. It's all important because sometimes it's just a different process for everybody. So it's like, how do you get in for each individual person, it sounds like. And it sounds like you have a bunch of different ways to do that.
Kelly Schooner [00:52:12]:
Oh, yeah. Thank you
Amanda Durocher [00:52:14]:
so much. Do you have anything else you'd like to add or to leave the listeners with before we wrap up this episode?
Kelly Schooner [00:52:20]:
Sure. I'm gonna give a plug. Oh, please do. Yes. If you're in California and you're suffering and you think that I might be able to help you in any way, my name is Kelly Schooner, and you can find me on Headway. Headway's awesome, by the way. I don't know if you've heard of that.
Amanda Durocher [00:52:38]:
No, I haven't.
Kelly Schooner [00:52:39]:
Okay. So Headway is a a website where I it's free for me and it's free for the clients, and they're the intermediary between insurance companies and clients.
Amanda Durocher [00:52:50]:
Oh, okay. Nice.
Kelly Schooner [00:52:51]:
So they got me on insurance panels so that I could use insurance, but they do all the billing. It's amazing. It's it's fantastic. Anyways, I'm on Headway. You could search me, and I'm also on Psychology Today. You could search me. And, if I am not helpful to you, then I can probably refer you to someone who might be helpful to you.
Amanda Durocher [00:53:08]:
I'll also include Kelly's information in the show notes for this episode so you can find those on my website at newviewadvice.com.
Kelly Schooner [00:53:14]:
Absolutely. Excellent. Thank you so much.
Amanda Durocher [00:53:16]:
Thank you so much. Thank you again. This was invaluable. You are so knowledgeable about EMDR and humans in general. This was so great. This was so helpful. So thank you.
Kelly Schooner [00:53:25]:
Well, if you ever wanna have me back, I am I am ready to go. If I can talk about anything else, you can let me know.
Amanda Durocher [00:53:33]:
A %. Thank you. Thanks Thanks again for joining us for today's episode, and thank you so much to Kelly for sharing such great information about EMDR and helping to demystify what EMDR is and how it can help us on our own healing journeys. If you haven't already, I invite you to check out my website, newviewadvice.com. On newviewadvice.com, you'll find a bunch of free resources for the healing journey. And, also, you can find today's episode show notes at newviewadvice.com/125, which will have more information about Kelly and how you can reach out to her as well as all the resources mentioned in today's episode. Thanks again for joining us for today's episode. I hope we were able to offer you a new view on whatever you may be going through.
Amanda Durocher [00:54:14]:
Sending you all my love. See you next time.
